TOENI, Margaret de

1114 - 1165  (51 years)  Submit Photo / Document

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• Name	TOENI, Margaret de
  Birth	1114	Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England
  Gender	Female
  Burial	Aug 1165	Godstow, Oxfordshire, England
  Death	2 Aug 1165	Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England
  WAC	10 Mar 1915
  _TAG	Reviewed on FS
  Headstones	Submit Headstone Photo
  Person ID	I31915	Joseph Smith Sr and Lucy Mack Smith
  Last Modified	19 Aug 2021

  
  

  Father	TOENI, Lord Ralph de ,   b. Abt 1079, Flamstead, Hertsfordshire, England Flamstead, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. Abt 1126, Conches, Eure, Haute-Normandie, France (Age 47 years)
  Mother	TONEY, Alice de ,   b. Abt 1076, Clifford Castle, Herefordshire, England Clifford Castle, Herefordshire, Englandd. 1126, Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England (Age 50 years)
  Marriage	Abt 1109
  Family ID	F18173	Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

  
  

  Family	FITZPONS, Baron Walter Fitz-Richard I ,   b. Abt 1105, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. 23 May 1190, Godstow, Oxfordshire, England (Age 85 years)
  Marriage	1135
  Notes	~SEALING_SPOUSE: Also shown as SealSp 11 Sep 1939
  Children	6 sons and 3 daughters
  + 1. CLIFFORD, Rosamund ,   b. Abt 1133, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. 1176, Godstow, Oxfordshire, England (Age 43 years)   2. CLIFFORD, Amicia de ,   b. Abt 1139, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. Abt 1185 (Age 46 years) + 3. CLIFFORD, Walter de I ,   b. Abt 1140, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. 22 Jan 1222, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England (Age 82 years)   4. CLIFFORD, Lucia de ,   b. Abt 1140, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. 1195, Richards Castle, Herefordshire, England (Age 55 years)   5. CLIFFORD, Lord Richard de ,   b. Abt 1151, Frampton, Gloucestershire, England Frampton, Gloucestershire, Englandd. 1213, Frampton, Gloucestershire, England (Age 62 years)   6. CLIFFORD, Roger de ,   b. Abt 1153, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. Abt 1221, Coventry, Warwickshire, England (Age 68 years)   7. CLIFFORD, Simon de ,   b. Abt 1155, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England   8. CLIFFORD, Hugh de ,   b. Abt 1156, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England   9. CLIFFORD, William de ,   b. Abt 1157, Clifford, Hertsfordshire, England Clifford, Hertsfordshire, Englandd. Aft 1221, Corfham, Shropshire, England (Age > 65 years)
  Family ID	F15649	Group Sheet  |  Family Chart
  Last Modified	24 Jan 2022

  
  

• Notes

  BIO: from http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMAN%20NOBILITY.htm#MargaretTosnydied1185 MARGARET (-1185 or before). Eyton highlights that Margaret, wife of Walter [I] de Clifford, "is said, with probability, to have brought him Clifford Castle in frank-marriage, she being a daughter of Ralph de Toni, Domesday Lord of that castle"[1646]. Eyton implies, but does not actually state, that there is no primary source which confirms that this supposed parentage of Margaret is correct. He also says that "an equally probable account of the mode in which Clifford Castle left the sucession of the Toni is that Maud, wife of Richard fitz Ponce, was a daughter of Ralph de Toni". The chronology is not particularly favourable for Margaret to have been Raoul [IV] de Tosny´s daughter. Raoul´s children must have been born in the range [1104/15], given his marriage in 1103 and the narrow possible birth date range of his wife in [1073/76]. If Margaret was Raoul´s daughter, she would have been old when she died in or before 1185, and her husband even older when he died in 1190 assuming that he was about the same age as his wife. Let us compare this assessment with the approximate dates which can be assessed for the children of Walter [I] and his wife. Firstly, the couple´s grandson Walter [III] first appears in the records in 1208, presumably when he was a young adult, which would place his birth to [1180/90]. At that time, his father Walter [II] would have been over 40/50 years old if his maternal grandfather had been Raoul de Tosny. Secondly, Walter [I]´s great-granddaughter, granddaughter of his daughter Lucy, was probably born in [1190/96]: she was reported an infant on her first marriage in 1197, and her father died in [1196]. This would place Lucy´s birth in [1140/50], which would be on the late side if her maternal grandfather had been Raoul de Tosny (although not impossibly late). Thirdly, when these two cases are slotted together, it appears that Lucy was very likely older than her brother Walter [II]. If that is correct, the Tosny connection is even less likely, given her estimated birth date, if she was one of her parents´ older children. Another point to make is the absence of compatible onomastics for a Tosny marriage: none of Walter [I]´s children received typical Tosny names (Raoul/Ralph, Roger, Isabel, Adelisa, Godechilde). Walter [I]´s grandson was named Roger, but it is likely that he was named after his maternal grandfather (see UNTITLED ENGLISH NOBILITY). A last point of confusion is the reported marriage of Isabelle, another daughter of Raoul [IV] de Tosny, with another Walter FitzRichard (who is probably identified with the son of Richard Lord of Clare and Tonbridge, see above). If Margaret had also been Raoul´s daughter, this would lead to the improbable (although not impossible) coincidence that two of his daughters married two different individuals with the same name. In conclusion, the alleged Tosny connection of Walter [I] de Clifford remains something of a mystery but the proposed Tosny parentage of his wife Margaret does not appear to be the ideal explanation. m WALTER FitzRichard de Clifford, son of RICHARD FitzPons & his wife Matilda --- (-1190).]